The Last Word: An interview with Terence McKenna

Synchronium, what is your wildest dream?

Synchronium.net, it seems to me like you don't know much about Terence Mckenna. He had a lot of schooling, he went into the world and lived in many places in many ways and he grew into a very positive, perceptive and intelligent human, and he didnt stop growing until the moment he died. Its nice that you read a book that has succesfully started the first steps of changing your outlook, but this man changed the outlook of millions for the better and was capable of changing his own outlook without the help of other peoples ideas and writings. You will be a very good person if you attain even a fraction of the human understanding this man acheived.

Hey,

I don't know about you guys, but I'm gonna go play my , sit and talk to my girlfriend, listen to some music (i'm quite in the mood for herbie hancock, actually), and not worry about things that I am unable to change nor influence. It's all entirely subjective. Why worry about people having other points of view? They're allowed to after all.

It's easy to think of Terence as a confused or uneducated scientist, but it might be more beneficial to think of him as an artist. We don't ask if artists are 'right', only if they're good. And damn, was he good!

Synchronium.net, why do you have to put your negetive input in? Just learn a little respect, if you dont like his views then dont watch it. Nobody was like "hmmm i wonder what synchronium.net thinks about this video". just shut up next time and keep it to your own ignorant self.

oops, immanence (or soul)

the personal god is an implicit feature of pantheism as in the anceint Egyptians and Ra

from what i've read of mckenna's ideas, like many philosophers, he had only a basic vocabulary for expressing psychological ideas.

every psychedelic experience is personal - the person journeys into personal mind. this exploration is concerned with immanence (or the personal God). a narcissistic mentality is involved - as evidenced by mckenna's call to follow one's curiosity and by his unique perspectives on life born of personal experience. this journey requires the spiritual seeker to learn to moderate his vanity and this is done through the development of new ideals

mckenna's 'single human viewpoint', dissolution of boundaries, evolution into connectedness, are ideas linked to universality or pantheism. universality is linked to jealousy. as an entrancement with narcissistic monadism fades, a love of humanity takes it's place. the spiritual seeker is challenged to understand how to moderate the love within jealousy. ideas concerning equality, connectedness to the fore.

neither monadism or pantheism is the end goal. a spiritual seeker is finally challenged by monism or transcendence, in which the person must learn detachment from suffering. this exploration is concerned with the impersonal God. in this interview mckenna says that he found the process of dying to be alarming, revealing his struggle with the impersonal God - a God that could take a 53 year old man from his loved ones. here the spiritual seeker is challenged to deal with fear

mckenna's path through life reveals his spiritual growth. he explored mind using mind-altering drugs, became a social commentator / reformer promoting the idea of connectedness, and in dying had only a short time in which to try to achieve detachment.

a high flying philosophical idealist driven by a love of life, an explorer of values and meanings, an existentialist living according to his own values and meanings - it is these characteristics that are inspiring (at least to other philosophical idealists)

science is irrelevant to the understanding of a life centred on narcissism and jealousy. this is because science works with pride and guilt. As I'm sure most would agree, there will be punishment if strict scientific method is not observed!

synchronium you're obviousely an intelligent person and your arguments have been quite interesting but I would say that they are typical of a scientific mind. This is no criticism, science has a lot to offer. However, the mistake that always seems to be made by people of a merely scientific persuasion is that it is the be all and end all, the crowning glory of modern intellectualism if you will. It is simply not the case if you are to look at the bigger picture. Eintein knew this, as did Carl Sagan and Richard Feyman. They have all said on numerous occasions that science is nothing without philosophy and vice versa so to reject philosophical ideas simply because they appear to be pseudo-scientific is to be frank, ludicrous. Science is simply one brick in the memetic wall. Mckenna working from a more philosophical standpoint is obviousely going to sound strange to the scientific mind of facts and figures but it is not to say that he hasn't a grounding in these scientific findings. Anyone versed in Mckenna's ideas will know that he is well read in all fields including science. Also calling Mckenna an eejit while heralding a pop scientist like Richard Dawkins I actually find quite disturbing. I have read numerous books by Dawkins including the blind watchmaker, the selfish gene, the god dellusion, all of which are lacking in intelligent, creative ideas. They are all products of other, more intelligent peoples musings on the universe and he simply borrows their words and dresses them up in a thinly veiled arrogant sneer against the unscientific mind. He's not that bad just a bit...uninspired. I do understand your point of view however. The trouble is sometimes terence mckenna's diatribes can often sound like individual soundbites of a psychadellic mind but if you really delve in to his work you will see that there's alot more to it. Ah well, difference of opinion. Who cares to be honest? basically everyone talking here were bored and in need of some form of creative outlet and as its too late to play the piano I've joined an internet debate. (shudder)

This is great. terrence has found eternity

"I couldn't say it better than this site, so please scroll to #5 on this list: cracked.com/article_17445_6-best-2012-apocalypse-theories-are-all-bullshit.html"

yeah, cracked.com is the height of scholarly rigor...

your posts are performance art, right?

evolution is not 'only genes' or nothing gig. there is a massive epigenetic landscape, there are ideas wich evolve, development of technology, culture, art all that shit. mushrooms had an impact on humankind one way or another.

even if you find the idea of the chemical agent induced evolution not true, it does not anwser the question of what excactly is the mushroom ina gaian matrix system. i see it something like crowleys holy guardian angel routin; somethin so in your face absurd that you have to deal with it on another level and not just say 'its bullshit' cuz this isnt any help.

synchronium:

The idea of psychedelic intercalation in DNA was not invented by McKenna; papers were published on the subject in NATURE (among other places) in the 60s and 70s; do a Google Scholar search if you don't believe me.

You would be well-served to read more and pontificate less.

"second it is not lamarkian, he addressed this fairly well in 'food of the gods'"
We'll have to disagree on this score. He addressed it in FOTGs, but I didn't find his arguments particularly satisfying. It's been a while since I read the book, but if I remember correctly his strongest argument was "people who were predisposed to mushroom intoxication were also predisposed to language, and given the fact that they were eating mushrooms and having orgies, they had more children and passed this predisposition to language along."

Well, OK. Maybe.

But I don't read such arguments and jump out of my chair exclaiming "it all makes sense now! Mushrooms were obviously pivotal in the development of language among the early hominids!" I read it and think "Hmm. Mildly interesting speculation..."

first of all the stoned ape theory isnt about changing your dna, its about psilocybin conferring adaptive advantages to those who used it, and that it helped early human ancestors in the development of language.

second it is not lamarkian, he addressed this fairly well in 'food of the gods'

third if you want to learn about evolutionary theory then richard dawkins isnt the only stuff you should read, he is only a very, very, very small piece of the puzzle, and usually only earns a few citations in most of the respected books teaching evolutionary theory

synchronium is satisfied to have the whole of reality explained to him by richard dawkins. we should all be so fortunate to have such closure.

Like someone else already pointed out, he wasn't a scientist. Which isn't surprising, since no actual scientists take him seriously.

If you really want to expand your mind with evolutionary theory, please read The Selfish Gene and The Extended Phenotype by Richard Dawkins.

Those books are incredible, and have certainly changed my everyday outlook on the world.

Why shocking? It's just speculation, with no real evidence to back it up. Terrence admitted as much! He was aware of the Lemarkian leanings of his theory and tried to address them, but never really did so in a satisfactory way.

What I find a bit surprising is that so many people view it as non-speculative and accept its premise, giving it more credence than even TM did.

shocking that the "monkeys ate mushrooms" theory falls on so many deaf ears...

when scientist back up the theory and find the link in our DNA I'd like to see the reactions on those faces.

Terence is just Mr.Misunderstood

I think TM was wrong about many things: the "stoned ape" theory seems tenuous at best and verging on Lemarkianism*; intercalation of DMT and DNA seems to lack any scientific evidence; and to think that the structure of time was encoded in the King Wen sequence of the I Ching... well, to use one of TM's phrases, this is a limit case to credulity.

On the other hand I don't think he was an idiot; in fact I think he was very intelligent and did what he did extraordinarily well. And what he did was tell stories. He was neither a philosopher nor a scientist. Now, he occasionally claimed to be most allied with the scientists, and in this he was mistaken (wrong, but not idiotic). On the other hand, most times he admitted to being a story teller. That many people overvalued the "science" in his writing says more about the state of the scientific education of his readers than of any of his personal failings. TM was intelligent, and I think his readers need to be intelligent too, lest they make mistakes about what he was doing. [The same could be said about Strassman's DMT book. Strasmann was very clear about what he was doing and was very careful to distinguish between science and speculation -- a distinction which seems to be totally lost on most of his readers, owing to what seems to be a very poor ability to comprehend this kind of writing. But does this make Strassman an idiot?]

(*): As an aside, Lemarkianism is actually being revisited by some evolutionary biologists.

And yeah novelty theory did tend to change a lot, and I noticed a logical fallacy one time when he was explaining it although I can't remember for the life of me what it was. Psychedelic Salon'ers will recall the immense length of the Valley of Novelty talk...

Well the stoned ape thing is probably one of his most solid and useful ideas. You saying that eating psilocin won't affect your DNA or evolution doesn't make sense. Diet affects evolution. Your rebuttal wouldn't hold water unless psilocin was the only compound that wouldn't affect the species. He has laid the theory out very clearly several dozen times to his audiences and none of it contradicts anything of Darwin's.

bottom line: c'mon let's face it-it takes years of poppin' E to become an eejiot, and I don't think Terence ever did THAT much E.

[Awesome - I love a good internet argument]

My ego IS at the door, along side everyone's blatant sycophantism. Oh no, wait...

Ok, I see your points re the scientist straw man thing. Perhaps I should have chosen my words my carefully. Allow me to rephrase, in reference to the LSD thing: What kind of philosopher/thinker with a large following would offer up pseudoscientific nonsense about a topic they clearly don't understand?

While I'm here, let's touch on his other "big ideas"

* The whole "Stoned ape" thing. Utter bullshit. Firstly, there's no way that ingesting psilocin would affect your DNA - and mutations in DNA are a requirement for evolution. Secondly, if they did, they'd have to alter the DNA of all the cells in your body to include the sperm/eggs (which would also be required as offspring need to inherit a mutation). Any advantage gained from eating psilocybin containing mushrooms would only be temporary. His understanding of evolution is LaMarckian at best. Look on Wikipedia for Lamark, if you don't know what I'm on about.

* Novelty Theory. I couldn't say it better than this site, so please scroll to #5 on this list: cracked.com/article_17445_6-best-2012-apocalypse-theories-are-all-bullshit.html Please do read that btw.
Again, with phrases like "fractal waveform" & "singularity of novelty", it makes people who don't know any better think that he must know what he's talking about. Kind of like Homoeopathy or TV ads about the latest shampoo breakthrough. Penta-fucking-peptides, anyone? It's irresponsible.

But then again, I'm sure he did have some interesting and potentially useful things to say, which is why I said he was only an eejit and not something far worse.

Check your ego at the door, Synchronium. Jealous of TM?

Terrence never claimed to be a scientist. Even though his explorations weren't entirely objectivist, he has contributed quite a lot to the psychedelic community.

I for one welcome the rules of logic.

Therefore, Synchronium.net, I implore you to restate your last comment, and this time avoiding Audiatur et altera pars. If you are not sure what I am referring to, then perhaps this will help, "Terrence a scientist .... ???" According to who? Please state your assumptions.

Following from the above, it should be clear to you why you also commit the Straw man fallacy.

Regards,
the.bricoleur

Ooo it's kicked off!

Yes, he grew mushrooms, yes, he wrote a book, etc. He can still be an eejit though.

An example:

I'm pretty sure it was him that thought LSD intercalated with his DNA following a particularly long trip. Well, that right there is bullshit - using scientific words to jumble together some bullshit theory, based on nothing other than what he thought it felt like. Anyone that takes his word as gospel is then going to believe that, and there are a tonne of people that do. I argued the same point with someone over at Drugs-Forum recently, so I won't go into it again here. But any scientist worth his salt won't pull a theory out of their ass (containing some interesting scientific words) with no evidence whatsoever. The only reason to do that is to sound clever. Using pseudoscience to impress an audience of lay people is not cool.

Oh, and if you want to have a go at me personally, perhaps you should learn how to argue first. [link]

obviously we can say syncronium.net isn't a repected vendor.

hey syncronium- remember what happened to Kellog's after they dissed Phelps...

might be time to go find a new job.

Kratom is definitely NOT an entheogen.

What we have going within this sub-culture IS a community.

We, including you, wouldn't have things the way they are, especially in America if it we're for the wild inspiring words and visions of Terence McKenna. I think many people STILL have yet to comprehend his life and death because in many ways he came and went before the party really got started. Maybe next decade we'll actually begin to grieve when it sinks in that we lived alongside a historical figure akin to that of myths and legends, philosophers and revolutionaries. Terence McKenna's name should have been more household than Leary's by now, but he really never had any controversy other than some of his theories, and idiots who think he's an eejiot or whatever. Next decade maybe his vision and origin theory will find mass appeal. Many artists, musicians, and scholars find more popularity well after their death only to become timeless.

you're way out of sync syncronium.net.

I have listened to Terence talk for hours and hours on dozens of subjects, and it seems like he must have learned everything he possibly could in his life! Or at least learned something from it.

Terence McKenna an eejit? That's a new one. Assuming you mean idiot, what is the criteria? Have you ever read any of his books, heard any lectures? You should check them out.

i bet terence never tried to sell kratom as a entheogen!

WTF! c'mon wake up Terence McKenna is THE GUY that made the mushrooms possible...the FIRST guy to grow cubensis, and go BIG!!! 70lbs every six weeks in the 70's and 80's. You may not know that, but we owe him that respect because it is truly part of his legacy. He wrote the book on it. Respect.

Yeah, but a holy eejit!

A sweet memory. Thanks James!

Everything I've ever heard about him makes me think he was an eejit.